[00:00:00] Sam: The first question I was going to ask you is how, it's more of a general question and it's how does gender actually influence our lives? I'm male, you're female, what are the kind of actual differences that we experience due to me being born a man and you being born a woman?

[00:00:21] Student: Oh I guess how to say, how our gender is.

Today has a lot of impacts on us because it's it has an impact of how we are educated by our parents most of the time. Of course, we can't generalize, I guess, maybe some parents today don't do that, but definitely in the past, and I'm quite sure today too you're not educated the same way if you are, if you're supposed to be a woman or a girl or a boy and society has makes a difference between boys and girls and, And man.

And you can see it in very different ways. Like in the toys, most of the time there's a difference between boys and girl. You can see it in the, how do you say, how people expect you to be. It's kind of common to see that if you're a girl, you're supposed to be. More patient, more kind, more attentive to others, not too dynamic, dynamic, extra.

And when you're a boy, most of the time, it's okay if you are more in the fight games. And you have to sometimes of course, you're not supposed to cry extra, extra say what people expect from you most of the time, even if it's, even if it's not your parents, not your sister and brothers it can be just a non people or maybe teachers or anything, maybe your friends.

They expect you kind of be a certain way if you are a boy and girl, and obviously when you became a woman, man, it's kind of the same the way you're behave and the way you dress. It's the same way on maybe so if you have makeup or not your hair. Lots of things. If you are a woman or a man it has an impact.

Yeah. And I would even say maybe it's more than your question, but maybe the first question would be, yes, what how to say a word gender, just. It's just based on what we have between our legs, it's just a question of, of that. I mean, so you can't even, I mean, it's difficult to choose in which direction you want to, you want to in which direction you're going to go and you have to. I mean, you can't choose a direction and then you have to choose a direction. Sure, but maybe this is more the question, but

[00:03:04] Sam: yeah, and it does really make things more complicated when you separate sex and gender because people can change their gender regardless of, you know, what is between their legs.

But it's, it's. It is strange. I think, I think clothing and appearances are one of the easiest ways to kind of tell the differences between what males are kind of expected to look like and what females are almost expected to look like. For example, if you had my hair style. People would think, okay, that's not very feminine.

If I had your hairstyle, people would, I guess men do tends to have longer hair more than women have. shorter hair, well this short anyway but still if I had your hairstyle, people maybe would think, oh, that's not a very masculine haircut. I think our glasses are quite similar. So no difference there, but you could, you could wear this jumper without anyone thinking differently.

If I was wearing your top, for example, people would think, why is that man wearing that top? Exactly. Or even, yeah, if I had my nails painted. Some people might think that's not very masculine or that's a feminine appearance, but yeah, so I think appearance wise where there's definitely different expectations and then, like you said, there's different traits, isn't that?

So what are some of the. What are some of the old traditional traits that like a traditional man has? Can you think of any?

[00:04:39] Student: Traditional traits, so it's more than, it's not about appearance,

[00:04:43] Sam: it's Yes, exactly, like characteristics, personality, like if you think of the old Like, alpha male, like an old James Bond, what is an old James Bond supposed to look like like, be like?

[00:04:55] Student: That's a very good model. Very good example, obviously. Yeah, I guess let's see. Traditional traits are supposed to be what we have what was described in the first video being a cold man. If I remember well,

[00:05:09] Sam: being a cool man,

[00:05:10] Student: a cool man. I'm not sorry. I don't I don't know why I remember cold.

Yeah, of course cool man, so yeah, I mean this cool man is, is supposed to be very confident, very self confident, is supposed to have no feelings or at least not showing any feelings. Supposed to to, to be very distant with people. I mean, it's, it's not a person who, who takes you in the harm who touch you very easily.

I think this kind of person is supposed to be strong. Mm-Hmm, rather strong appearance. Have of course, short hair not fancy seeing, not, I guess, no jewelry or anything. And yeah, this kind of person is supposed to be kind of an attractive person to women. I mean, this person is supposed to be heterosexual, obviously.

Yes, I guess. Cisgender, of course. But but yeah, this person is supposed to be very attractive to women. Because this person, I guess gives the feeling to be not easy to, to keep to have, you know but yeah, I think it would be I guess just just kind of man is supposed to be kind of clever and be always in control, I guess.

Like not sad, but not really angry to very calm. Very. I know what I do. I know how I will do. Everything is going to be okay because I know I have this kind of feeling like yeah, I think it's kind of the. I'm quite sure I've forgotten some traits, not being

[00:06:56] Sam: sure. I think you've covered most of them. It's almost like confident, capable self independent.

They don't rely on anyone else. They're able to provide to people they love and care about. And yeah, they're supposed to be, I don't know, aesthetic, good looking and cool as well in the traditional sense of cool. That's why people like. Those traditional male types and even me as someone who kind of understands that this is just like a media image that has been projected to us of certain types of men, which we're supposed to look up to, even I get drawn, drawn in by that quite a lot.

So, when I'm watching a film and there's a character who is like a traditional male character and is cool or. I just, I'm drawn to them. I don't know why. And lots of men are similar. That's why James Bond, for example. That's why films like Scarface are popular. That's why Don Draper in Mad Men is kind of cool as well, and why people like him, even though he's clearly a bad person.

And so is the main character in Scarface, of course. Yeah, it's, it's It is it's, it's strange. What about some traditional feminine traits? I

[00:08:12] Student: would say that traditional feminine traits are more being very kind, very discreet not really not really talking a lot about. I don't know, intellectual things, I would say this kind of model is more supposed to be taking care of your house, your husband, because you have to have a husband, isn't I mean, if it's not the case, I guess you have, it's a fail, obviously taking care of your children because you have to have children, of course and yeah, being good looking too.

But in in I would say in a traditional way, but there's no sense here, but not being sexy. Obviously, I think more discreet, more in a pure way. I know. I don't really care to say, but in a discreet way, it's. Yeah, I think not talking too much, just being good looking, not talking too much and taking care of the others, your family.

And yes, maybe a little shy, maybe not really confident. Probably a person with a lot of feelings, but maybe not showing, I mean, showing much, but not too much. I mean, it depends with who probably to I don't know, probably to maybe too emotional for. Her husband, I don't know. I really have the feeling that it's kind of the opposite, honestly, of what I've said for men.

I don't often talk about family for the men, actually, which was the first thing, like kind of the first thing who brings my mind when you asked me the question for women. Yeah.

[00:10:01] Sam: So, yeah, it's almost like when a man has some more feminine traits, it makes them less masculine, almost looking at traditional kind of traits anyway.

So if a man is vulnerable with his emotions. then he might be seen as feminine or if they ask for help in any situation ever. It might not be seen as they're not very masculine. Exactly. But I think today, now the kind of understanding of what it means to be a man and a woman has grown. So now we see men who are being labeled as healthy.

images of masculinity, but I think in one of those videos I sent you it just means being like a lot of the time it's almost like a just a being a nice person and wearing a cardigan and that is just kind of how you be a positive masculine force. What, what does the term toxic masculinity mean to you?

[00:11:11] Student: Oh I think toxic masculinity means Being masculine in a way, I think the behavior was bad for others and at some point bad for you, but for yourself, and I felt it was kind of the idea provided by the third video, the most complex one when there, there was this idea of you have to, I mean, behave in a way where you feel okay for you to, like, maybe sometimes you, I mean, as a man, you want to reach some goals, which doesn't fit you at all, obviously, but it's your goals because you're a man, and it doesn't make sense at the end.

And even for others, it's going to have potentially bad consequences, but even for you, because you don't feel this kind of person. So I think toxic masculinity, yeah, it's both, maybe firstly, having a bad impact. Of course, because of your behavior, we're supposed to represent what it's man, but possibly potentially, it's having a bad impact for you to in the same goal.

I would say, I don't know. What about your definition?

[00:12:28] Sam: I guess it's just kind of the hyper extremes of those traditional masculine traits because one of them is aggression. And I guess one of the differences between men and women is that on average, men have more testosterone than women. You know, both men and women have testosterone and oestrogen, which means either sex has more than the other, which apparently influences psychology.

So, I guess, because men on average are more aggressive, I guess someone who is too aggressive towards other people could be deemed toxic. I guess another one, like you mentioned, it's not just towards kind of hurting others. Through your aggression or oppression. It's through not actually helping yourself and asking for help when it's absolutely necessary.

In physical situations, like, I don't know, a fire is in your house. I think that's in one of the videos, isn't it? The cool man, there's a fire. He's, he's not, he's not stressed or anxious. He just calmly puts out the fire. And saves his family just without even thinking about it too much. It's, it's putting yourself and others in danger due to your inability to ask for help.

And it could be psychologically as well. You know, men definitely have higher suicide rates women. And this is probably the reason why is because they don't, they feel this pressure not to They feel a pressure where they can't ask for help for other people and there's this societal pressure that men should be independent, independent and capable and able to solve problems by themselves.

So, when they are suffering and they're in distress they can't do that or they feel like they can't do that and that's not the individual perhaps being toxic, but it's the expectation of what it means to be a man. Which is influencing them. So what, what, what does it mean to be a healthy man and a woman?

Maybe not a woman because, well, maybe because a lot of women looking back at the traditional traits of a, of a female, of kind of subservient, kind of woman. Living to please others and be a service to others and being quiet and not being bold or courageous. I'm sure a lot of women would look at that and think that's not what kind of I want to be like, or what my daughter's to be like, or what my friends to be like.

I want them just to be themselves. So what does it mean to be a healthy man or healthy woman to express your kind of your gender or your sex? Because there's clearly are differences between. Men and women, I don't know if they're purely environmental. Like we mentioned, kids play with different toys.

Maybe that's because parents choose the toys that they play for. We don't actually know what men and women would be like if we stripped away the environment. So it's difficult to actually, you know, say that the differences we experience now are not just maybe natural, but I don't can't really think of the word.

But so what does it mean to be a healthy. Female and it doesn't even matter. Why is it just being a good person or

[00:15:50] Student: a healthy person? That's what, yes, what you, what you told was, it's, it's very interesting. I mean, my, my first answer when you ask the question was, but do we need, yes, to put a difference.

Between being healthy woman and a healthy man, and I remember it was kind of the last sentence you had in our previous, a sense together, a lesson together, and obviously it's 1 of the conclusion of the video. I guess it's probably from the French girl at the end. She's kind of maybe it's more just a question of being a good person and and naturally men or women.

But yeah, maybe it would be wrong to pretend that today it's possible to just, I don't know, just being a person. I don't know if we are at this level, at this step. Maybe we're still at the step of being a healthy man and being a healthy woman, but Anyway I would say yeah, I guess for a man, it would be more being a healthy man would be being aware of your feelings, aware of what you really want, and being able to identify it firstly.

I'm not so sure that a lot of men are able to do it, and even women, to be fair, and to be able to say it, to, to share it with the person you trust, to have trustful relationships to. I'm not so sure that it's easy for men to have good Trustful relationship with both men and women, I mean, not in a love way.

I really like maybe more friendship and to not feel like you have to be to not. Feeling forced to have some kind of physics, some kind of appearance, and you don't have to be strong. You don't have to have muscles. You just have to be. To feel okay with your appearance and just being in good health. I think that's the only goal you're you're supposed to have.

You should have. And yes, being okay with the fact that you don't know everything you don't you can't do everything. Obviously, you, you, you, if you need help, it's okay. You're not a bad person and you're not disappointed if you need help. You have the right to have different feelings and to express them.

And yeah, I don't know. And yes, it's not necessary to be aggressive, obviously, and just being respectful with other person and maybe especially, and and don't be a bad friend with your man friends. Thanks. I mean, being be a good person with them and don't participate in this kind of fake models.

So, yes, I guess for men, maybe it would be this kind of things and maybe for women, it would be a little. That's the opposite that slightly different, like, maybe for women, it would be like you don't need a man to be a woman. Firstly, maybe and you, you don't you have the right to have yes, you have to identify maybe your, your own, yes, what you want to do, what you want to be extra and being comfortable with that and you don't have to justify who you are and why you, you have the right to express yourself.

What you think you have the right to to, to discuss about everything you have the right to have an opinion and everything. And you have the right to you don't yes, you don't have to be too focused on your happiness, which is, I think, very good, very not good, very important thing for women, unfortunately, and you don't have to be yes.

You just have to be what you want to be in a physical way, and you're not here to be pleasant a woman, which I think it's unfortunately a big thing. Even, I'm pretty sure, even when you're a lesbian, it's still, there's still this thing, so, yes, it's Yeah, anyway you didn't yes, what can I say? Yes, being okay with your feelings and not being shy and okay, being courageous.

Okay. Being adventurous, maybe. And yeah, I think I forget some things, but it's okay at the end is just be who you want to be and forget. All people, other all other people, that's, I think is very difficult to forget that.

[00:20:52] Sam: Yeah, it's almost like looking at some of the traditional traits and then maybe not going to the other extreme.

So maybe men shouldn't talk about all their feelings all the time, but honestly being able to express a wide range of emotions and being vulnerable when they do it and not be judged. When they do it, and then with women, I guess, the trait of them kind of being quiet, the goal is not for them to be as loud as possible, but not to not to feel like they have to be quiet, but I still can you think of any traits, which you think are excuse, which should be exclusively.

Masculine and exclusively feminine, because when you think of them, which are like courageous self independent logical creative, and you could attach these to any, either one of them. Well, you could quite easily apply them to, to both men and women. So, I can't actually think of a a trait which could be exclusively applied to, to either one.

Maybe Some people might say men on average are more aggressive than women, but it doesn't need to be aggressive in the sense of physical, but like, someone could say that, take that and say, okay, on average, men are more aggressive than women. So, maybe an exclusive masculine trait should be being aggressive.

Not in a violent sense, or in a way of harming others, but maybe controlled aggression towards political goals. I don't know. Or through sports, perhaps, where aggression is needed. Maybe look at some boxing or martial arts or any contact sport. I can't really think of any traits which, which can't be applied to either, because you could quite easily say that about women.

That women can be aggressive towards political goals, or even, even, even in sports as well. Of course, women play sports in now so it can be exactly the same. I don't, I can't think of one, which really does. Question the idea of why do we even have what, what does it actually mean to be feminine and masculine, if anything, if we, if I want to live in a world where a man feels comfortable dressing in any way he wants to, and exactly vice versa with women, if they want to have short hair, if they want to wear boys, like boys clothing, then that's fine.

I don't, and no one else really should. And then, because I can't think of actual traits. Which is exclusively masculine or feminine. What's the point? Why does it actually, why does it matter? Yeah, I totally agree with you. But I, I I remember I mean, I remember what she said. Like, a few minutes ago, and I don't have the answer neither, but it's interesting anyway and it's kind of relative of your question but it's difficult to know what we should be, what we, we could be.

[00:24:06] Student: If there was no environmental educational influence society influence, because as you said, and it's true depending of our chromosome. So we say that in we, we are not exactly the same in a biological way. Yeah, in X, X, X, Y, X, Y. And it's true that when you have XY chromosomes, you're supposed to have more testosterone, that XX, and when you are XXXX, you're supposed to have, I guess, more estrogens, more progesterones you can have menstruations I mean, There are some biological difference, which we can't deny, even if I'm not fully happy to say, would say that it doesn't exist, but it exists, I can't, I can't say the opposite.

So, I am yes, wondering what are the real impacts of all of this difference in the way in yes, in your behaviors, in your. In your capabilities, it's I'm not pretty comfortable things that to be fair. Because I feel like the answer is not going to be what I want it to be, but but it's, it's true.

And it's true too that, as you said in when you. See the average men are usual X. Y. I'm usually more more colder. Yeah, usually stronger. That's a fact. That's a matter of fact, we can see it in sports. There are some differences not for all sports, I guess, but for most of them, there's differences and not in favor of expressions.

There are some differences that exist. So, yes, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know what is the perimeter of differences. As you said, I guess there is this aggressive characteristic, which I guess. Who but I don't know what are the, yes, what are the others. Impacts, of course, it's still a matter of average because we couldn't, we could always find a yes, it was women being stronger than men, obviously, and women older than men, of course, but yes, and maybe some women more aggressive than some men, I guess, too, of course, we can always find opposites, but I mean, kind of exceptions, I don't know, I guess.

But, yeah, I don't know, yes, what are the real, I don't know if there are studies, but I guess it's difficult to have studies on that, I don't know I don't know, it would, it would be interesting to, I'm a little afraid of that, but, you know, anyway, but at the end, I agree with you that I guess all characteristics could be for both men and women, and so at the end, that, that, I mean It doesn't lead to the conclusion that men should be like that and women in the other way.

The only answer is just. Do what makes you happy and respect other people and that's it, which is kind of simple.

[00:27:26] Sam: Yeah, absolutely. So, do you think it would be better if we tried to look at societal influences even, you know, as simple and fundamental as dressing boys in blue and dressing girls in pink and completely trying to remove any.

It seems a bit like a top down approach of trying to forcibly kind of strip away masculine tendencies and feminine tendencies through objects and aesthetics. My girlfriend is quite She's a believer that we should treat boys and girls the same when they're kids. And then if, if you just keep doing this for years and years and years and years, eventually there will be less of the box of what it means to be a man and a box of what it means to be a woman.

a woman will grow and eventually it will, there'll be no box at all. And then we'll live in the society where men can look what they, what they how they want to, and women can look how they want to as well. Do you think that's the goal of just eliminating or just kind of expanding the box as much as possible?

[00:28:40] Student: Yeah, I totally agree with that. I don't know how it's possible to do that because. It's it's possible if everybody plays a game and the thing is, is a case. We know it's a long term goal can be a short term goal, but I kind of agree with that. I mean, I, yes I don't see the point. Yes, to, to still add these boxes.

And yes, it would be, it would be better to just have many boxes as possible. Many boxes as human heart. And I guess we could still have common points with some people because of our appearance, because of our behaviors, because of what we think. So we will still at some point, I guess, belong to some boxes, but maybe it would not be like woman and man.

Because it's very. It's a box with a lot of characteristics and maybe it would be just like it exists today like boxes with people who are, who are very sensitive boxes with people who I don't know love playing tennis. I'm saying shit, but you know, like we all today belong to different boxes because of where.

Opinions, because of the way we behave, because our beliefs, extra, extra, so it, it would still exist. And we just, we raise men and women, but maybe there will be, I don't know, a new box, new box. I don't really like, I feel like it's not positive to use the word boxes, but maybe it exists. Anyway, we all categorize.

Other people, we can't tell the opposite. It's true. And we can't help ourselves judge each other in the first second. So I remember to see some studies like that, like the first second you see someone, you already have a judgment of this on this person. You can't even control it. Like it's, it's natural. I mean, you can't, you can't control it, I guess after, and you can say to yourself, okay, please break.

I don't know the person, so I'm not going to think this way. You can't help yourself to have a judgment. So I guess it would be difficult to totally erase that. But, yes, to just, I don't know maybe either erase the boxes, maybe make bigger boxes, maybe make together boxes at the end, because they will be so bigger that they will just be together.

I don't know. What is the good metaphor that I totally, I mean, I think I have this kind of idea to, I guess I agree with your girlfriend. You don't share this. I feel like you were no,

[00:31:35] Sam: I do. It's just, she's a bit more aggressive than me in terms of policing this almost. Yeah, I know, but no, I just think it's, it's difficult.

I don't think you can tell people what to do, especially how they raise their children. It's all, it seems quite personal. So if someone does want to address their baby. Boy in blue and make them play with trains and they want to dress their baby girl in pink and get her adult's house or something like that.

Then it's, I think it's quite personal to tell someone, you know, that's not, that's wrong. You're reaffirming gender stereotypes. So I'm a little less, I think it's, I think the change will have to happen. I don't think it's going to happen. In our lifetime, I think it's going to take a very long time to kind of unravel what we now understand as a man and a woman, because like I said at the start of this conversation.

I'm still attracted to a strong traditional man in the sense when I'm watching a film or a TV show and there is a masculine, a traditional masculine character. I don't know why, but I like it. And I want, I feel like I want to be like them, not in a toxic sense. Like, I don't want to be those negative attributes.

But when men like James Bond, because they want to be like James Bond and they, and it's, and they feel like they're not as cool, capable good looking as him regardless of which one it is, it's just, you know, it, the character is the ideal man almost. So, yeah, it's it's going to take a long time for it to change, but hopefully, hopefully the box, the boxes do get bigger.

Well,

[00:33:21] Student: I understand what you're saying. I totally agree with you because Yeah, it's, of course, it's a part of the problem. I mean, I'm not going to lie that I don't, I'm not attracted by, by alpha man. I'm not attracted by the kind of undutate people, obviously, because there are so many toxic traits. It's so many red flags for me.

There is a, but I guess it's, it's, it's kind of the same as you, as you explained, I can't say that I'm attractive. I'm attracted by the total opposite of this kind of man and it's, I totally agree with you that it's a thing. I mean. I'm really, really realizing this kind of thing this past year, I guess.

But it's a thing to be convinced of concept thing of a man can be whatever he wants, a woman can be whatever she wants. And after to see yourself being attracted by this kind of person and being like, it doesn't exactly fit. I mean, it's not the opposite of what I think, but. I can't help myself saying like, I wouldn't be, I wouldn't be with a man who is smaller than me.

I'm very lucky because I'm small myself. It's very difficult to find a man who is smaller than me. But I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna lie. I wouldn't be, and it's totally unfair. And I wouldn't be as with the men with smaller than me, it would be difficult for me to be with a man who is senior than me. I don't expect it was a man with muscle, with strong or would do sport any time.

But if he is, if he is senior than me, if I'm the strongest one, I would feel, you know, I won't feel bad. And it's stupid too.

[00:35:23] Sam: Yeah, it's the same with me, but the other way around. I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with a woman who was. stronger and bigger than me. I'm usually attracted to shorter girls anyway, but I don't think I see a tall girl and taller girl than me.

I'm over six, well, 180, like four or five centimeters. So there's not many girls that are taller than me, but I wouldn't say like, no, I'm not attracted, but I'm more inclined to. Yeah, shorter, but it's important to remember that just culture culture shapes all of this as well. So you know, Kim Kardashian, who lots of men would find attractive, maybe 20 years ago, that kind of aesthetic of appearance and also her body shape.

Maybe they wouldn't find that attractive 20 years ago. It's just how culture shapes what we feel like. How we should look and express ourselves and also what we're attracted to as well. So, yeah,

[00:36:25] Student: that's true. That's true. Yeah, it's not on the equation. Yes, it's, it's yes, it's just a question. Yes, of what's what is the patient?

I mean, what are the patient? But what is popular or not? And maybe depends on the countries too. I'm quite sure that. My own, and I mean, I'm in France, you're in, in Britain, so there is no difference, I guess, between our culture about what is supposed to be or not, obviously, but I guess in other countries, it could be different.

So I guess it's also a question of where, where are you living? Yeah, too many, too many things were very interesting. Yep. So thank you.

Get ready for a fun and entertaining round of "Would You Rather?" In this video, we've picked out 5 intriguing and thought-provoking questions to ask each other. The twist? We won't be revealing our choices until the end, adding an element of surprise and authenticity to the game!